No offence Smiffy, but doesn't this deserve a seperate thread? However, in response I have to say that it's really worrying just how much terrorism is capturing our thoughts these days. I remember the times when we worried about the IRA and nothing much else... now, this kind of shit is ****ing everywhere
Don't get me wrong - I agree with what you are saying about the man killed. I would love to see him captured and information about who plotted this extracted from him under "extreme interrogation". I also fear that he might have been innocent but also like you I doubt it - You don't run from armed men in this kind of atmosphere unless you are guilty as all hell. But, I also think that the special forces/intelligence, despite the farce of the Iraq war, happen to be very competent. A man was imprisoned today in India for planning to fly a plan into the houses of parliament on 9/11 - I don't think he didn't do it cos he was frightened. I'd take a guess the intelligence services had a large hand in it. And I'm sure there are countless other attacks, some worse than two weeks ago, that we don't know about that were stopped.
Don't you worry Smiffy, you are one of the few with which I feel I can have a reasonable debate. As for the "guilty as hell" comment, does it not make you wonder what he was guilty as hell about? I don't consider myself to be left wing, in fact many of my views would be considered very right wing, but I like to approach each case on its own merit. I also think that this kind of atmosphere creates confusion... disruption is, after all, part of the terrorists' plan is it not? Confusion can lead to mistakes, and mistakes can lead to further, unforseen problems. I also agree, however, that other attempts must have been stopped, and some potentially worse than the disasters we've faced. However, I can only base my judgements on what we're allowed to know?
Then you suddenly become all high and mighty and say that people can't debate? You talk about an us and them attitude yet worry about muslims being singled out, treated differently. In another thread you even spoke about how muslims are in our police force etc! You tried to accuse the police of being heavy handed, but you listened to what the likes of me and Pach said. That's reasonable. Even after you wondered why secret forces tracking suspects didn't wear uniforms! But those comments above pissed me off. I honestly can't believe you seem to be blaming the authorities, calling the special forces f uckwits simply because of this. Have you been in a cave since 7/7? Ever heard of sleeper cells? I don't think Bin Laden personally phoned them up to say bomb London, more they watch him on TV and think "that's a good idea". You have these websites like anarchist's cookbook telling you how to make home-made explosives. How could you gain intelligence of the nail bomber of a few years ago and his intentions? They'd have to intercept his brain waves. Have we seen race riots like Oldham, Burnley etc? No! We travelled to NYC in Feb 2002 with someone who wore a turban - and it was intimidating to say the least. At one stage someone was shouting like mad out of his car and if the traffic hadn't started moving he looked like he was going to get out with a baseball bat or something. Here, we understand the situation, extremists and all. BNP? A handful of results over the country, even in the spots you expect trouble, even after 9/11 and Bin Laden poking his head out. Now look at France, Holland, the days of the German Nazis. That's why I love Britain.
I didn't say that others can't debate... I am however concerned about the "with us or without us" attitude of a number of memers here. Damn, I'm level headed. What a crime! The police / special forces were, in my opinion, heavy handed. And is it such a crime to take in to account the opinions of other people? I don't think I know it all Trev, and will always listen to opposing arguments. Perhaps you should re-read my comments? I said that the special forces look like ****, which is quite different from being ****. If they could provide the public with evidence of some kind we'd all be happy, but they can't? The anarchist's cookbook is more likely to kill the reader than any innocent civilian. It's true that terrorism of this kind is hard to predict, and I accept that. However, if the authorities are going to pretend that they know what's going on, they had better kill the right people!
Pretty scarey... A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed. A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy" which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police. The man was shot dead after police followed him from a south London flat to Stockwell Tube station on Friday. Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus. The statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification. "We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005. "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets." The statement confirmed the man was followed by police from a block of flats that was under surveillance. The man's death is being investigated by officers from the MPS Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1190065,00.html NO BOMB LINKS TO SHOOTING The man shot dead by police in Stockwell, south London, is not connected to the investigation into the attempted terror attacks in the capital. Scotland Yard is yet to release the identity of the man killed by undercover armed officers. A police statement said: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police, although he is still subject to formal identification. "We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005. "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets." Police said the man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on Thursday 21st July. He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions. The circumstances that led to the man's death are being investigated by officers from the MPS Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the IPCC in due course. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cold blooded murder on the streets of London. Reports suggest this man may have been Brazilian! But lets all applaud the police eh for pinning someone down and firing 5 rounds into him. Those who laughed when I suggested we are now living in a police state better think again!
Maybe he didn't plant any bombs but if he was indeed connected to al-queda, then good riddance. He didn't pay for his ticket either.
FFS, when will you people accept that an innocent man was killed by an incompetent 'intelligence' force? If he was linked in any other way, they would have told us given the political repurcussions of this incident... it was a balls up, the wrong man got killed... face up to it.
May not be connected to thursday gareth, but that's not to say he was an innocent party in all of this either
Thing is Andrew that they haven't told us about any connection? They've said it was a mistake, which is not something you say lightly given the current political climate. If they could connect him in any way I'm sure they would tell us, given that not telling us gives the extreme muslim mcommunity further ammunition?
Like I said before, these were gung-ho shoot first ask questions later rejects with too much adrenaline pumping. You think they were waving badges around and making it known who they were? Bollocks... someone pulled a gun on the guy and he panicked.
Sorry but you're a moron, you would rather them restrain from shooting someone they believed to be a suicide bomber until they see the bomb lol. Its a split second decision they have to make and it makes it easy when the bloke tries to run onto a packed train. Right or wrongly they have to make it based on the information they have right there, theres potentially hundreds of peoples lives at risk if they get it wrong. I'm glad your not making that decision, you'd get us all bloody killed with your 100 questions and your tickboard checklist before you drew your weapon. Besides i think you'll find that the person who pulled the trigger was far from a simple armed copper, more likely to be SAS/SBS anti terror squad (cant remember the name it was given), as they will make that decision where a normal copper might not.
